[Sorcerer SoC] OOC comment/discussion thread

edited November 2008 in Out-Of-Game
So here's a place for us to talk about stuff as we go along as well as comment on what's happening. Though I invite everyone to put comments in the actual scene threads in some personal color Which you may want to claim now to distinguish it as your OOC voice. I'm reserving red for GM voice. Of course you can just type normally in this thread.

Remember thoughts are in italics and you are welcome to soliliquize (?) in character with them. Any intended actions not yet narrated into the story or anything else should be in OOC voice.

Question for Rugrsi and Yellow. Would it be okay for me to combine your backgrounds a bit and make the former Saar vassal state the same as Dalomo's home state? I can do it either way (and have notes to both) but I think it would tighten things a bit. If that's true Rugrsi do you want Ismene to be your pupil or a younger sibling of hers?
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Comments

  • edited December 2008
    If no one has any objections I'll claim blue as my colour
  • RusRus
    edited November 2008
    Combining background is perfectly ok. Go with what you find most interesting. A detailed review of what we end up with would be helpful.
    I'll edit my comments with my color.
  • Color list

    I went with Maroon.
  • edited November 2008
    Do what you like with background - I left names off of most things/people for just that reason.

    I'll use SlateGray.
  • edited November 2008
    I thought before the first scene I would list my thoughts on my character's starting equipment.

    Since he has a vow to regain his lost inheritance it makes sense that he should start impecunious.
    With a past as a Stable Boy and a Warrior Monk his few possessions are likely to be simple but practical.

    So with that in mind:

    Demon staff.

    Worn, flea infested, black kimono with belt. (Hmm scratching at Demon insects from staff, that would perhaps be a better tell tale than golden eyes)

    Tetami Zori (japanese style sandals)

    A wooden rice bowl & cup (Sorcerer and Sword recommends Humanity vs Will for relying on charity). So with his Humanity of 6, and the average for Will being 2 or 3, I doubt he's gone without food less than a 29% of the time and has resulted in him staying in the fishing village for a few days.
    Charity roll (6 / 6+2.5)*100 = eating 71% of the time.

    Yugagyo-ha manuscript

    Small basic set of farrier and grooming tools wrapped in cloth

    2 Cloths, small jar of bees wax for cleaning the staff and polish for cleaning statues.

    Two heavy grey black metal (tungsten-carbide) religious statues resembling worry dolls. Virtually spherical except for a hoop made by the statues elbows.

    Concealed Weapon: You can't always rely on your demon.
    Spore Spider-silk line hidden in his kimono belt (stronger than Kevlar) with miniature clips at both ends.
    When the two religious statues are attached to each end of the spider-silk cord they form a Meteor Hammer (an ancient Chinese weapon). Remember Gogo from Kill Bill?
    The spider-silk cord can also be used on it's own as a garrotte.

    Any objections or added suggestions?
  • Sounds fine tass. You pretty much have what you need most of the time or at least what makes sense narratively, but that's a fine guide to go on.

    I've got most of your scene written but I have a question. You're the only one in Genesia, everyone else is more or less centered aoround the Empire, Saar, and Jeddek. I don't necessarily want you dealing with the same people/places but it might be nice if you were more or less in the same geographical region. Perhaps you are just returning to the Empire and the periphery after your extended stay in Genesia? Perhaps your village is on the edge of one of these territories? It would also sort of set you more on your way to your intentions.



    Rugrsi, did you say whether you wanted Ismene, daughter to your lord, to be your pupil or a younger sibling of hers? In which case you would be her former teacher.
  • edited November 2008
    Yes that's fine. Locate the fishing village where ever you think appropriate. It could even be by a lake if sea isn't appropriate. He could have exited the sea of corruption anywhere. But like you say he would likely be heading for the Empire so he would be near the border. Or waiting for ship passage. Jeddek makes most sense as it's buckling under the Empires oppressive rule.

    Oh, one last thing. He's spent time chatting with the fishermen. He's had them teach him to tie the monkeys fist knot (they use for throwing a line). He's made a couple and cut these off the rope and is using them a practise weights for his meteor hammer (non lethal version).
  • Trevis,

    I'm happy with leaving the entire backstory up to you. All of the options you provide sound interesting.
    I think, for the sake of narrowing down the variables, have Ismene be the pupil who's just stepped out on her own. Give Dalomo a bit of the "empty nester" issue as well.
  • edited November 2008
    Well I've posted my first scene entry.

    I love the title. "In this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes." – Benjamin Franklin.
    The baby twist on my kicker was great.

    I've tried to describe where I'm going with the whole scene as this is a pretty slow way of gaming I guess.
    I'm not sure how much director stance you want us to use. I've assumed stuff like what their armour looks like (I took it from the film and the Manga), what I can see from the roof, the wind direction and I've started one sided conversations to create some drama. I've not contradicted any of your text and I suppose you can always say the wind changes direction etc. Or tell me to change it.
    But, am I on the right track? Or assuming too many things or too few.

    I thought I'd take a Narrativistic stance and throw in fake Pirates into the mix. To give you a bone to chew on and foreshadow future events. I'm sure my demon would approve of the mischief, if he'd known about it.
  • Tass,

    I don't mind the embellishment at all, it's a pretty good entry. Descriptions and all that stuff are pretty open and make great opportunities for bonus dice. The only point I'll throw is that you can't narrate something that requires a significant decision from someone not under your control. Can we back your post up to your conversation with the girl? Give me a chance to respond with that one. I think a roll might be involved to get her to go along with you.

    I'll post Ignotus scene later today along with responses to tass and rgursi. I apologize that the takeoff has been so slow. I know what it's like to keep checking a game for updates and being disappointed when they aren't there. Once everyone is rolling I'll do my absolute best to maintain that three post per week goal (for each of you.) and I hope you'll do the same.

    Yellow you haven't posted to yours yet, do I need to do something more?
  • Trevis,
    Yeah that makes sense. I'll edit the post shorter to finish after my question. I hope I speed up at posting after I get used to this medium of roleplaying. I guess the first entry of each scene is the longest.
  • edited November 2008
    I went home for Thanksgiving, and had to get quite a bit done before doing that - nothing really special.

    A few things have come to mind:

    Do Briseis and Ismene know each other? They're close in age, and Briseis spent quite a bit of time in Jeddek, not too long ago. I think it might be interesting if they don't know each other (could be a source of friction there, if Briseis had been 'like' a daughter to Balun while Ismene was away), so maybe Ismene happened to be away from home when Briseis was there ... she was betrothed to Lorasai at some point, right? Maybe she was in Teutomekian court, and returned when the empire absorbed Jeddek?

    Before this scene, not too long ago, the Throne went into Need out of its efforts to participate in the fight against an imperial task force. It might have done so by creating spawn (to repel boarders, say), which might leave one or two battle-damaged war machines moving around inside the Flower, which could be fun.

    How does damage work in vehicle-scale combat? I don't see rules for that in the core book, but it might be in one of the supplements ... I wouldn't know. My guess is: damage penalties get applied to the vehicle, and any rolls made to control the vehicle take those penalties. However, since the ship doesn't have a Stamina score (unless it does), how do you figure out where the damage thresholds are (normally 'greater than Stamina' and 'greater than 2x Stamina'). Use what the pilot is using to control the vessel? I'm realizing I don't really know how that works, when it'll almost certainly come up with the Flower of Remembrance.
  • edited November 2008
    Thought I'd answer your question yellow about vehicle combat.

    As far as I know there is nothing in any of the supplements regarding ship combat. However there was this article on the Forge called: So, I'm Flying a Spaceship...
    Basically it's Sorcerer is space. And Ron talks about how you would use ship to ship combat. Which is almost as you described it, I think may work in this case too.
    http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=26693.0

    In summary he said:
    I thought a little bit about the technology, spaceships, and doot-doot-doot-swoosh! spaceship dogfighting, and this what I came up with.

    It ain't nothing but more vehicles and more gadgets, and so you use the same old Sorcerer scores as before. Use Stamina when the pilot is leaning and straining to hold the ship steady through a spin or whatever, and use Will when he has to stay cool and tap the keyboard rapidly with one hand, staring forward fixedly with a bead of sweat running down his brow. All this cinematography is old-school anyway, right? The dogfights from, well, dogfights, and the maneuvering from submarine combat, or in some cases, from 19th century warships.

    The dice and scores and stuff are all there, and you treat damage as a new table of its own. Here's the surprise: treat small guns and large guns in ship terms relative to a ship taking damage (or same thing, treat the ship basically as a person and use the guns rules as written), with Armor turning it to Fists damage as usual. Damage taken to the ship means penalties to your ability to fight with it. So basically, when you die, it's because the ship is blown up or blown open and you die from that.
    There's more in the discussion, but the above is Ron's input.

    What do you think Trevis, could this work?
  • edited December 2008
    Here are a few examples I've made up based on Nausicaa. But they will probably need the values tweaking to make them balanced, especially the weaponry.

    BRIGS

    Genasian Monitor

    Genasian Monitors are the stock ships of the Genasian Air Forces, some consider them city or city-state ships, with sometimes entire tribes being held in only one or two the massive behemoths. While Monitors have a half decent top speed, their acceleration and maneuverability make them incredibly vulnerable to any form of aerial attack, long as it is strong enough to penetrate the hull.

    Vehicle Type: Destroyer/Personnel Carrier
    Crew: 23 (1 captain, 1 pilot, 1 co-pilot/navigator, 10 gunners, 10 mechanics) standard. The ship can also hold up to 200 other people, be they soldiers or civilians. It is not uncommon for Tribe Elders and their entourages to also be aboard. CARRYING STAMINA: 670
    Armour: 3
    STAMINA: 12
    Areas:
    Front Section
    Mid Section
    Rear Section
    Thruster Units (6; 3 on each side)
    Hull
    Bridge
    Cannon Batteries (several)
    Hatches (many)

    Speed:
    Hover stationary while positioning to land. Has vertical take off and landing (VTOL) capabilities. Thruster Units (6; 3 on each side)
    Flying: The Genasian Monitor can travel at up to 150kmph (90mph), but general cruising speed is 100kmph (60mph). Can reach cruising speed in approximately one minute, but takes five minutes to reach top speed.

    Statistical Data:
    Length: 100m (300ft)
    Height: 45m (135ft)
    Width: 30m (90ft)

    WEAPON SYSTEMS

    1. Cannon Batteries (12): The only weapons on Genasian Monitors are huge cannons. This is one of the strengths and weaknesses of Monitors. While they are able to deliver punishing salvos, hitting fast moving targets is a difficult task. Only two batteries can be brought to bear on targets in front or behind of the monitor, and four can be targeted at anything to either side of the Monitor.
    Primary Purpose: Bombardment
    Damage: Canon
    Rate of Fire: Each battery has two cannons, and each cannon can fire once every other melee.
    Payload: Each cannon has a one shot payload, then it requires one melee to reload, then the cannon can be fired the following melee.
    NOTE: These cannons are –2 to strike against any target moving faster than 160kmph (100mph).

    Teutomekian Bumblecrow

    The Bumblecrow is the workhorse aircraft of the Teutomekian Empire. Designed to transport a large amount of fully equipped front line soldiers, just fast enough to make a difference, is this ships most common assignment. It is rarely used as a stand-alone attack craft, the multiple auto-cannon turrets most commonly used in self-defense, or for suppressive fire.

    Vehicle Type: Armoured Personal Transport
    Crew: Essential personal: 3 (pilot, co-pilot, navigator). Troops are commonly used to man the turrets, though in some cases, professional gunners operate them. The innards can also transport up to 40 fully equipped Teutomekian Knights, with mounts, or 60 infantry.:CARRYING STAMINA: 190
    Armour.: 2
    STAMINA: 8
    Locations:
    Main Body
    Wings (2)
    Guidance Flaps (4; 2 left and right)
    Thrusters (4; 2 on each wing)
    Tail Wings (2)
    Front Loading Doors (2)
    Turrets (4)
    Bridge


    Speed:
    Flying: The Bumblecrow can travel at up to 100kmph (60mph), but general cruising speed is 80kmph (48mph). Can reach cruising speed in approximately one minute, but takes five minutes to reach top speed.

    Statistical Data:
    Length: 15m (45ft)
    Height: 7m (21ft)
    Width: 25m (75ft)

    WEAPON SYSTEMS
    1. .50 Machinegun Turrets (4): The only weapon systems mounted on a Bumblecrow are four double-barreled .50 Cal Machinegun turrets, two mounted on each wing, and two more mounted near the cockpit. They are mainly for defense.
    Primary Purpose: Defense
    Damage: Big auto-gun


    Gunships

    Saar Gunship

    The Saar Gunship is the only gunship equal to the Jeddek gunship in overall capabilities. With a lighter frame, thus greater agility and speed, and rapid-fire auto-cannon, the Saar gunship is an accomplishment in hit and run aerial attack.

    Vehicle Type: Fast Attack Gunship
    Crew: One pilot. A passenger can sit in the pilots lap, but all piloting actions are therefore reduced penalized by –1 CARRYING STAMINA: 9
    ARMOUR: 1
    STAMINA: 4
    Locations:
    Main Body
    Wings (2)

    Speed:
    Flying: The Saar Gunship can reach speeds of up to 250kmph (150mph), but general cruising speed is 200kmph (120mph). Can reach cruising speed in less than one melee (15 seconds) from take-off, and top speed in another melee (15 seconds, 30 seconds total).

    Statistical Data:
    Length: 4m (12ft)
    Height: 2m (6ft)
    Width: 8m (24ft)

    WEAPON SYSTEMS
    1. 20mm Auto-Cannons (2): The only weapon systems mounted on the Saar gunship. Two heavy auto-cannons, with massive rate of fire and payload.
    Primary Purpose: Assault
    Damage: Short Burst = Rifle
    Medium Bursts = Big auto-gun
    Rate of Fire: Can perform 6 short bursts or 3 medium bursts before needing to reload.


    Jeddek Gunship

    The Jeddek Gunship is a powerful all-out assault craft. With incredible speed and a sturdy frame, this vehicle is very well capable of downing a Genasian Monitor with two shells from its massive nose cannon.
    Vehicle Type: Heavy Assault Gunship
    Crew: Two, one pilot & co-pilot. A passenger can sit in the pilots lap, but all piloting actions are therefore reduced penalized by –1 CARRYING STAMINA: 15
    ARMOUR: 1
    STAMINA: 5
    Locations:
    Main Body
    Wings (2)

    Speed:
    Flying: The Jeddek Gunship can reach speeds of up to 200kmph (120mph), but general cruising speed is 150kmph (90mph). Can reach cruising speed in less than one melee (15 seconds) from take-off, and top speed in another melee (15 seconds, 30 seconds total).

    Statistical Data:
    Length: 5m (15ft)
    Height: 2m (6ft)
    Width: 9m (27ft)

    WEAPON SYSTEMS
    1. 80mm Nose Cannon (2): The only weapon systems mounted on the Jeddek gunship. Two cannons which fire heavy explosive shells.
    Primary Purpose: Assault
    Range: 2km (6600ft)
    Damage: Cannon
    Rate of Fire: The cannons can be fired simultaneously or independent of each other.
    Payload: Each cannon has one shell. Once both are fired, the gunship must land and reload.


    Miscellaneous

    Genasian Flying Jar

    The Flying Jar is an odd Genasian hovercraft, able to carry up to three people over vast distances by simply going over any obstacle. When expecting combat, the craft can mount a machinegun on the top.
    Vehicle Type: Transport Hovercraft
    Diameter: At the widest area 2.5m (8¼ft).
    Height: 3.5m (11½ft).
    Weight: 200kg (¼ ton)
    Crew: One pilot, and able to carry up to two other people, generally one gunner at least.
    ARMOUR.: 0
    STAMINA.: 3
    Maximum Speed: 64kmph (40mph).
    Maximum Altitude: Up to 303m (1,000ft).
    Cargo: The Flying Jar can carry up to CARRYING STAMINA 56, whether inside it or being carried by a tow cable.


    Gliders

    Gliders are quickly becoming more and more popular modes of transportation within the Periphery States, especially so in the Jeddek. In some skirmishes, they have been known for combat use, as they are extremely agile, of course firing from them is a bit tricky. There are two types of gliders, powered and non-powered. Powered gliders are like Mehve, the glider used by Nausicaä, with engines to provide quick thrust. Non-powered rely solely on the wind, and are cheaper and much easier to maintain. Gliders are primarily manufactured and sold in the Periphery State.

    Non-Powered Glider
    Weight: 20-50lbs(8-20kg)
    Width: 6-12ft (2-4m)
    Length: 2-3ft (0.6-1m)
    ARMOUR.: 0
    STAMINA.: 2
    Maximum Speed: 40-50mph (64-80kmph). By jumping from a high area, or when flying with a good tail wind, the glider can reach speeds of up to 120mph (192kmph).
    Maximum Altitude: Up to 1,500ft (500m).
    Cargo: The glider has very low capacity for holding weight. CARRYING STAMINA 4, and that’s on the top, any force pulling down from the bottom exceeding Stamina 1, will cause the glider to lose altitude at a rapid rate, eventually crashing.

    Powered Glider
    Weight: 40-100lbs (16-40kg)
    Width: 9-15ft (3-5m)
    Length: 3-4ft (1-1.1m)
    ARMOUR.: 0
    STAMINA: 2
    Maximum Speed: 80-90mph (128-144kmph). By jumping from a high area, or when flying with a good tail wind, the glider can reach speeds of up to 160mph (256kmph).
    Maximum Altitude: Up to 3,000ft (1km).
    Cargo: The powers glider has a low capacity for holding weight. CARRYING STAMINA 6, and that’s on the top, any force pulling down from the bottom exceeding Stamina 1, will cause the glider to lose altitude at a rapid rate, eventually crashing.
  • if you can find the Traveler mod for Sorcerer out there, I think they have ship ideas too.
  • Thanks rugrsi. I'll check it out in an hour or so. I may be able to balance the ones i made a bit better too.
  • Nope couldn't find any ship ideas with the mod on the web.
  • edited December 2008
    It seems like it would be better to abandon stats for ships and just treat them like any other sort of prop in Sorcerer - like a gun, or whatever. Like the quote from Ron up there. You could base damage on the skill the pilot's using to fly, and treat armor as a purely logical thing. Like, the pilot of a heavy ship should get bonus dice when defending against small arms fire.

    Giving ships Armor and Stamina of their own gives them added weight in the game rules, on par with minor demons (but without any particular personal cost, like you'd have from binding an actual demon). I mean, as the only PC with an airship (and it being a rather nice one), that can only be to my advantage, but still.
  • edited December 2008
    I know what you mean it feels like your getting something for nothing. But it's just equipment that fits your character for this scenario. If she was poor in the next one then the GM would remove it at the drop of a hat, like it suggests in Sorcery and Sword. It no different than me using a sword. It feels like a power with no ties. But it's not a demon.

    I know it looks complex above. The only Stat a vehicle really replaces is your Stamina. Which is an advantage if it's higher than yours but not if it isn't.
    It has additional armour, weapons and a carrying capacity. The rest is colour.

    Your could describe the Jeddek Gunship simply as:
    Stamina: 5
    Armour: 1
    Weapon: Cannon (2 shots)
    Stamina it can carry: 15
  • edited December 2008
    My last comment of Ron's suggestion would be a Vehicle Damage Chart. Which is basically shifted down one on the damage table with the addition of Cannon.
    Note: The only one that feels wrong is Big handgun/Rifle which the lasting penalty which would be X, seems too much compared to Big auto-gun, so I've used 2 lasting penalty for Big handgun/rifle. For larger Vehicles like spacecraft another table would need to be devised.
    Special damage Demon's power could be replaced with just 2 + (1/2 Demon's power) depending on how powerful you want them to be against vehicles.

    Vehicle Damage Chart

    Damage Type_________________Penalties (where X = number of victories

    Fist/bludgeon_________________No damage
    Edged Weapon/Small handgun___X for next action; 1 lasting penalty
    Nasty big handgun/Rifle________X for next action; 2 lasting penalty
    Big auto-gun__________________2X for next action; X lasting penalty
    Cannon______________________3X for next action; 2X lasting penalty
    Special damage Non Lethal_____Demon's power for next action; 1 lasting penalty
    Special damage Lethal_________X for next action; Demon's power lasting penalty


    ps. You could add cannon to the normal damage table (If fired on by a vehicle)
    Cannon______________________4X for next action; 3X lasting penalty

    That's it.

    What do you think Yellow? And Trevis it's up to you decide at the end of the day?
    For me it was just fun it create it and I'll keep it in mind for future if I run a game with vehicles.
  • I'll have to think about it a little. It's cool that you're enthused enough about it to work it out, Tass. I'm not sure you really need all that definition, fictional consistency should be enough. If you use the pilot's stats which is basically what Ron is suggesting, then a lower stat pilot is just going to be more vulnerable to bad luck in ship combat... unless he/she can add cool texture and detail to the scene for those bonus dice, or use rollovers! I don't know that you even need to modify the damage table, just sort of mentally scale it relative to the ships.

    We're not really worried about scaling the ships relative to people, I don't think. If you think of the standard scale, a normal person is a 2 or 3 stamina, a good strong person is 4 or 5, and an exceptional person is 6 or 7 (6 is the highest I've seen a sorcerer score.) I'm not sure defining carrying capacity is critical. I'm gonna call bullshit on you if you try to pulll the freinds in a volkswagon trick on a powered glider. Still it's interesting and appeals to my old skool gaming stat instincts.

    Another option is to treat a ship (and a bunch of other stuff) like a demon. Just give it a power and stamina and assign the rest as demon abilities (big, armor, special damage) Course I would be tempted to give it just a power. (It was an option I saw a while back where demons only had a power score, which was used for everything. I liked it, it was elegant.)

    Hmm...it's interesting too b/c it makes me think of the Throne a posessor, having to have a technological host of some kind.
  • edited December 2008
    Oh. Perhaps I'm not being clear regarding what the Stamina value of a ship is. It just purely for how much damage it can take before exploding. Pilots scores (stamina, will, etc) are used for all other rolls.

    But it's true you could rule by just scaling weapons to a human scale and think of the vehicle as a human scale and using the current chart. But how would you scale a demon special damage?

    But the fact remains that if I was in a tank as opposed to a car. I would expect it to take more damage before it exploded. I suppose you could rule that a person so unphysical as to have stamina 1 would be so useless a tank driver that it would be highly vulnerable compared to a very physical stamina 6 person driving. But I think that would be evident in the pilots defensive and offensive abilities. Not it's hardiness.
    So would you use the drivers stamina? What about copilots, gunners etc. If they have a higher stamina do they survive the crash? It gets a bit weird.

    Perhaps I wasn't being clear initially.
  • Thread that might be helpful.
  • Hey Tass, you're clear, I understand you. (Just to be clear, the "call bullshit" comment was in the abstract as in I would call it on anyone trying to put too many people on a glider.)

    The way I usually do it I don't bother to stat things except characters and demons, b/c Sorcerer isn't really a modeling type of game. The Stamina score is a representation of how much narrative influence a character has over the physical realm, not a direct representation of muscle/fitness. Will works the same way. It's more about story power if you will.

    An airship fight isn't really about the airships, it's about the people driving them. If someone has an exceptionally big/powerful airship I'd just give some bonus dice on the appropriate rolls attack and defense. How to handle survivors? If they are even people we care about and not mere mooks then they can make a stamina roll vs an on the fly estimate of the explosion. You see what I mean? The question at hand isn't really how much punishment can a ship take, it's does this guy manage to do what he intended or not?

    Now the Flower might be a special case simply because it is an extension of the demon.

    If necessary I think I would represent some significant thing like a demon with a power/stamina score and the appropriate powers, selecting the powers first as shown in the thread that Rugrsi linked..
  • edited December 2008
    Oh. I see.
    It's still hard for me to get out of my old rpg experiences with everything having stats and trying to simulate everything. So I think it's best I just sit back and watch the game play unfold and see what you mean. Yeah that was an interesting link.

    If you read the BIG power it says 'A parasite demon is defined by the size of it's host.' Is it that, which got you thinking of the ship being the technological host? Object demons like my staff feel like technological (very basic technology) parasite demons too, but without the power to Hop. So if that is the case then like my staff the flower is the demon stat wise as long as it is possessed.
  • edited December 2008
    An airship fight isn't really about the airships, it's about the people driving them. If someone has an exceptionally big/powerful airship I'd just give some bonus dice on the appropriate rolls attack and defense.
    That's what I'm thinking. Logically, it's reasonable for a big ship to be tougher, but I like to simply addressing that as bonus dice for a tactical consideration, just like having better reach with a weapon, or higher ground, or whatever. If I can describe using some aspect of the Flower of Remembrance to gain a tactical advantage (its mass/armor being just one possibility), I should get bonus dice for it. If not, maybe I don't.

    Besides, dogfights in the manga (and in the movie, for all one of them) tended to have the skilled pilots really rocking, regardless of what they were flying, so basing it off of skill works best in comparison to the source, as well.

    I don't think there's really a need to make an exception for the Flower, incidentally. The Throne can exist separately from the Flower, by ending its Big power and leaving behind the systems connecting it to the Flower, so Briseis can rescue it if the Flower goes down at some point. And the Flower already has some protection for as long as the Throne can confer Vitality to it.

    The part where the Throne fuses to the Flower is largely just color ... by the rules, it's an object demon that can confer Vitality to adjacent technology when its Big. I just stuck in a restriction saying that it has to connect itself to the technology when becoming Big in order to do that - it seemed appropriate, but I could've also described it (for instance) as releasing a swarm of little bug-robots that conduct repairs, and it would've fallen under the same rules.
  • edited December 2008
    Yes. I think I see.
    I suppose a film example of this is Luke Skywalker in his X-Wing vs Grand Moff Tarkin and the Deathstar.
    Technologically the Deathstar should destroy him hands down. I'm sure Tarkin got lots of bonuses for spending the time to construct a Deathstar for the purpose.
    But really it's about Luke's, how did Trevis put it, narrative influence vs Grand Moff Tarkin's. Obviously Luke's is stronger. Goodbye Tarkin and his Deathstar!

    There's just one thing I don't get about your Vitality power. I thought the power has a user and that user is either the demon (the throne) or the sorcerer (Briseis). So either the demon has vitality or the sorcerer. Is Conferring it to adjacent technology possible? Is the adjacent technology classed as the user?

    I've just read over Demon Types and Inconspicuous and Object demons can confer their abilities upon themselves or to another (as defined by ability). Can that another be adjacent technology or someone other than the master for that matter?

    I'm not questioning you doing it, I just questioning my understanding of the rules.

    I've just read The Training Run. And blow me, the Object demon ie. the House confers its power: Travel to unsuspecting users!

    Just found these posts:
    [Sorcerer] Cure light wounds and other "white magic"
    [Sorcerer] Question About Demons Conferring Abilities.
    [Sorcerer] Range of Conferring Usership
    Ron Edwards" said:
    yes, assigning a "third user" for Vitality is perfectly all right by the rules. Although that terminology isn't necessary, because if the demon is not the user of its ability, then it can assign the user as it sees fit, whenever it wants.

    Furthermore, this same idea does apply to all of the abilities you've listed. Understanding this feature of the rules is key to realizing how widely and how strangely applicable the apparently-limited list of abilities really is.

    The "conferring" part is indeed a little tricky. Vitality isn't really something you use, it's something you have, so ... the best way to do it is to have the demon confer it to another user, and leave that user unspecified (which is rules-legal; conferring is never required to be person-specific). Then the sorcerer-healer-guy simply tells the demon to assign it to whomever.
    Thus the ability is not actually conferred to the sorcerer-healer - that would mean he's getting healed, not the patient.



    Foundation point: The following options 1 vs. 2 must be chosen for the ability when it's created.

    Option 1: the demon's ability confers to itself. This the easy one, right? The demon is the NPC, the NPC has an ability, and the GM plays the NPC and says when he/she/it points-and-shoots.
    Option 2: the demon's ability confers to someone else. Screeching halt, to regard several points of difficulty.

    2a) the user flicks the light switch, the demon crouches downstairs at the circuit breaker. Most people get this part, although the implications for GM-player interactions about the ability's use suddenly explode into many interesting possible situations in play.

    2b) During play, use to use, confer-ence to confer-ence, the user can be anyone of the demon's choosing. Say it's an Object demon, a sword, which confers Travel to its wielder such that he or she can run up and down walls and leap real far. The demon can give this ability to anyone it wants, in range.

    2c) Exceptions to (2b): (i) a Parasite typically confers the abilities to its host, (ii) a Possessor or a Passer typically confers the abilities to itself. But these are conceptual trends, not rock-solid rules.


    Q. When a demon confers "User" on someone how close does it have to be.

    A. The demon has to be "there," which is to say, in the scene, within range of interaction of other kinds, and with the demon's attention including the individual to be given the ability, then it can be done.
    If there are any circumstances which make this problematic, such as a hostile foe between them or something like that, or your aesthetic judgment based on how sorcery/demonics is customized in the game, then get a roll in there to resolve it.

    I guess I've answered my own question by now. But I'd like to find some post to say that inanimate objects can be users, to deny my last reservation.
  • edited December 2008
    There is Doyce Testerman's Sorcerer Wiki too which contains a lot of helpful links to discussions about rules interpretation.

    Well it doesn't actually say that the user has to be a sentient being. I'd be willing to make the stretch. Handling the Flower without any stats means the Vitality works mostly in color mode anyway, mechanically applying to Briseis herself when she's in combat using the Flower (since it's her scores getting penalized).

    Tass I totally get you on statting stuff. I do it too and it's fun. I also trip over old gaming habits a lot so no worries.
  • That's a great link. I'll have to read it. I've taken my final questions about power confering to the forge. As it's not relevant to this scenario.
  • Huh, well he's right, warp would make more sense with inanimate objects.
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